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die Beweislast zugunsten des individuellen Rechts umkehren
SGV

Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

als auch von dem (Anspruch) der Gruppe, ihn mediatisierend auf das Gemeinwohl zu verpflichten

English translation:

as well as from society mediating demands on the individual to act for the common good

Added to glossary by Steffen Walter
Apr 23, 2007 07:07
17 yrs ago
German term

als auch von dem der Gruppe

German to English Social Sciences Government / Politics history of liberalism
(Direkte Konsequenz dieses methodologischen Individualismus sind die wiederum negativ gefassten Anforderungen an die Rechtfertigung und konkrete Ausformung politischer Herrschaft.) "Sie führen zu einer zweifachen Umkehrung der Beweislast: Gegen die Staatstheorie des englischen Mathematikers und Philosophen Thomas Hobbes (1588 bis 1679), die jede Selbstordnungsfähigkeit der Gesellschaft ausschließt, *emanzipiert der Liberalismus den Einzelnen sowohl von dem Anspruch des Herrschers, ihn auf den Pfad der Tugend zu führen, als auch von dem der Gruppe, ihn mediatisierend auf das Gemeinwohl zu verpflichten*. "
For which I have:
"These demands lead to a dual reversal of the burden of proof: as opposed to the theory of the state proposed by the English mathematician and philosopher Thomas Hobbes (1588 - 1679), which precludes any ability of a society to govern itself - Liberalism emancipates individuals from a ruler’s claims to keeping them on the straight and narrow, as well as from those of the group, thus mediating for common good"
Especially the bit I've marked is unclear to me.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +4 bezieht sich auf Anspruch
3 ["thus" isn't there - see below]
2 Anspruch = expectation/hope/aspiration

Discussion

BirgitBerlin Apr 24, 2007:
Not to *govern*, but to organise itself in a social order. (i.e. no one needs to be told where they stand in the social order, "society" happens automatically. (Therefore Thatcher's famous quote "There's no such thing as society" is complete b****cks.)
Jonathan MacKerron (asker) Apr 24, 2007:
is "jede Selbstordnungsfähigkeit der Gesellschaf" something other than "ability of a society to govern itself"
Jim Tucker (X) Apr 23, 2007:
It's not the individual that is mediating, but the group that serves as proxy for (or institutionalized face of) the common weal.
BirgitBerlin Apr 23, 2007:
I'd translate "Gruppe" as "society". "Collective" sounds too Marxist.
Jim Tucker (X) Apr 23, 2007:
"it" is not the group - can't be (because of gender but also because of the sentence structure). "Ihn" refers to the individual in both cases. We should iron this out before talking about the meaning of "Gruppe."
Jonathan MacKerron (asker) Apr 23, 2007:
So do I at least have all core ideas here?
"Liberalism emancipates the individual from a ruler’s aspiration to keep him/her to the path of virtue, as well as from the demands of the group, obliging it (the group?) to mediate for the common good."
Am still wondering whether I could substitute "society/collective or similar" for Gruppe here?
Jim Tucker (X) Apr 23, 2007:
in other words: "ihn..... zu führen" is completely parallel with "ihn.....zu verpflichten" take "mediatisierend" as adverbial with "verpflichten"
BirgitBerlin Apr 23, 2007:
Sorry Korrektur: des *Herrschers* dar.
BirgitBerlin Apr 23, 2007:
...des Allgemeinwohls dar.
BirgitBerlin Apr 23, 2007:
Ich sehe dass als 2 unterschiedliche Ansprüche: den des Herrschers (Führung auf den Pfad der Tugend) und den der Gruppe (die Verpflichtung auf das Allgemeinwohl). Deine Interpretation stellt die Verpflichtung auf das Allgemeinwohl ebenfalls als Anspruch
Jim Tucker (X) Apr 23, 2007:
you are still taking the second "ihn" as referring to the ruler, and the first "ihn" as referring to the individual, and the German won't allow that. You get into trouble inserting the "thus"
Jonathan MacKerron (asker) Apr 23, 2007:
Putting your suggestions together
"Liberalism emancipates the individual from a ruler’s aspiration to keep him/her to the path of virtue, as well as from the demands of the group, thus forcing the ruler to act for the common good"
He also frequently uses the term Kollective, so wasn't sure whether he purposely chose Gruppe to differentiate, or just wanted to use another word.
Many thanks to you all for your thoughtful contributions. As you can see this translation leaves you guessing with nearly every sentence.

Proposed translations

+4
14 mins
Selected

bezieht sich auf Anspruch

...emanzipiert der Liberalismus den Einzelnen von dem Anspruch der Gruppe, ...
very freely:
liberalism frees the individual from the aspirtation of the ruler to lead him onto the right path and from that of society to act for the greater good.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 34 mins (2007-04-23 07:41:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Ich sehe dass als 2 unterschiedliche Ansprüche: den des Herrschers (Führung auf den Pfad der Tugend) und den der Gruppe (die Verpflichtung auf das Allgemeinwohl).
Deine Interpretation stellt die Verpflichtung auf das Allgemeinwohl ebenfalls als Anspruch des Herrschers dar.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2007-04-23 09:02:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

not to "mediate for the common good". The *group* is *mediating* to get the invdividual to act for the common good.... The question is how to phrase this... maybe:
"... and from the mediating demands made be the group on the individual to act for the common good" ?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2007-04-23 11:24:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"pressure" ist vielleicht etwas zu krass ausgedrückt, "demands" (wie zuvor von Dir verwendet) klingt da eventuell moderater? Ansonsten würd ich sagen, dass es jetzt das Original adäquat wiedergibt. :-)
Note from asker:
Birgit, thanks for your detailed explanation
Liberalism emancipates the individual from a ruler’s aspiration to keep him/her to the path of virtue, and from demands made by the group on the individual to mediate for the common good? Thanks for your patience.
Danke und Gruss aus Lichterfelde!
"-Liberalism emancipates the individual from a ruler’s aspiration to keep him/her to the path of virtue, as well as from society’s mediating pressure on the individual to act for the common good"?
Peer comment(s):
agree Francis Lee (X) : aspiration ;-)
5 mins
"aspiration" natürlich...Typo. Ich war noch nicht ganz wach! Sorry!
agree casper (X) : Your "very free" translation is indeed very good. Kudos to you, BirgitBerlin
1 hr
agree Rebecca Garber
7 hrs
agree Cilian O'Tuama : schön (would "peers" work for "Gruppe?)
12 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "many thanks to all who contributed!!"
13 mins

["thus" isn't there - see below]

this part of the sentence is parallel all the way through with the preceding part:

"as well as (emancipating them) from the demands of the group that (individuals) be (held) responsible for the common good through its (the group's) mediation"
Note from asker:
so you take group here to mean "organized citizenry" or some such like?
you're right, I did understand the concept but forgot to change it in my text
"obliging the individual to mediate for the common good" - sorry my brain still seems to be in bed this morning
Something went wrong...
18 mins

Anspruch = expectation/hope/aspiration

It's about keeping the ruler on the straight and narrow (as regards his own concerns) while (from the group perspective) ensuring he respects his obligations as regards the common good.
Your question does not as such appear to be about "als auch von dem der Gruppe" (which you interpreted correctly).
By the way: I think "Pfad der Tugend" deserves a faithful rendering here, i.e. the path of virtue/righteousness ...

My suggestions for Anspruch are more passing ideas than concrete suggestions, however ...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 mins (2007-04-23 07:29:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

For "mediatisierend" I'd say "subject him DIRECTLY" to ...
(in the sense of ""immediate")

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2007-04-23 08:07:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And for "Gruppe": collective body/subject ...
Note from asker:
dare I use the word "mediatize"?
I actually have "keep him/her to the path of virtue", but changed it when I posed the question
Peer comment(s):
neutral Jim Tucker (X) : (your first sentence involves a misinterpretation of "ihn" in both cases - see comments above // OK - the other thing is the trans of Anspruch - the issue is that the indiv is being *emancipated* from smthng - that's why "demand" is probably better
1 hr
Yes, it's about the rights and obligations of the individual, of course. ;-)/ Hmmm ... but "demand" is in turn too strong IMO
Something went wrong...
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