Glossary entry (derived from question below)
German term or phrase:
Alemanneneinfälle
English translation:
incursions by Alemannic tribes
Added to glossary by
Languageman
Dec 20, 2006 14:29
17 yrs ago
German term
Alemanneneinfälle
German to English
Social Sciences
History
Roman occupation of Rhineland
This is from a text discussing the history of a Roman winery in the Rhineland:
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Im frühen 4. Jahrhundert wurde das Hauptgebäude nochmals erheblich erweitert. Danach hatte der Gutshof jedoch nicht mehr lange bestanden: Um 352 n. Chr. fiel er den Zerstörungen im Zuge der Alemanneneinfälle zum Opfer.
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I can think of a number of terms that might fit here. From what I understand from the author, the conflicts in question are more than simple raiding parties, but not a full scale invasion (hence the plural).
I was thinking about using "incursions", but cannot find any use of "Alamanni incursions" online (or using 'Allemanni' or 'Alemanni'). Any knowledgeable comments on preferred spelling in English would be great.
Thanks in advance as always,
Stephen
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Im frühen 4. Jahrhundert wurde das Hauptgebäude nochmals erheblich erweitert. Danach hatte der Gutshof jedoch nicht mehr lange bestanden: Um 352 n. Chr. fiel er den Zerstörungen im Zuge der Alemanneneinfälle zum Opfer.
----
I can think of a number of terms that might fit here. From what I understand from the author, the conflicts in question are more than simple raiding parties, but not a full scale invasion (hence the plural).
I was thinking about using "incursions", but cannot find any use of "Alamanni incursions" online (or using 'Allemanni' or 'Alemanni'). Any knowledgeable comments on preferred spelling in English would be great.
Thanks in advance as always,
Stephen
Proposed translations
(English)
3 +3 | incursions by Alemannic tribes | Lancashireman |
3 +9 | Alamanni raids | Kim Metzger |
Proposed translations
+3
8 mins
Selected
incursions by Alemannic tribes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamanni
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Note added at 17 mins (2006-12-20 14:46:57 GMT)
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The spelling with 'e' rather than 'a' is the one I am familiar with. Also I am more familiar with references to them as a group of tribes rather than as one homogenous group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_German
I hesitate to suggest that you allow Google scores to decide your choice...
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Note added at 40 mins (2006-12-20 15:09:41 GMT)
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Re your note below: Take care with the double and single consonants, Stephen!
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Note added at 1 hr (2006-12-20 16:05:04 GMT)
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RLRG is right: who would have thought that there were so many hotels with the name 'Alamanni' in Italy?
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Note added at 2 hrs (2006-12-20 16:50:20 GMT)
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There doesn't appear to be any effective KudoZ mechanism for responding to comments posted to other answers, e.g. 'As a student of history I...' or '...sounds more destructive'.
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Note added at 2 hrs (2006-12-20 17:13:14 GMT)
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Re 'by inference': Not necessarily. Some of the voting above (one in particular) may be more to do with the 'raid/incursion' issue. There is also one piece of nostalgic reverie plus two comment-free agrees. Set against this, you have three people very firmly committing to 'e'.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2006-12-20 18:29:13 GMT)
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Two more now...
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Note added at 9 hrs (2006-12-20 23:37:26 GMT)
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One further point (though at 9:2 this may now be a lost cause): I would not use the noun form 'Alemanni' (let alone 'Alamanni') to qualify 'raids' or 'incursions' because there is an accepted adjective form, 'Alemannic'. (Cf the 'Spaniard Armada'.) My own preference would be to invert the the construction and link the two nouns with 'by'.
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Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2006-12-21 21:25:19 GMT)
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I’m not sure whether it is wise or seemly to post any further comments (could look rather pathetic in the event that the pithy ‘Alamanni raids’ is declared ‘most helpful answer’ and waltzes off with the points!) but Cassell’s Latin dictionary gives the following: incursio –onis f.(incurro) a running against, clash, onset, collision, attack, raid, invasion.
For ‘Einfall’ Wahrig gives ‘feindl. Vordringen in ein Gebiet’.
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Note added at 17 mins (2006-12-20 14:46:57 GMT)
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The spelling with 'e' rather than 'a' is the one I am familiar with. Also I am more familiar with references to them as a group of tribes rather than as one homogenous group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_German
I hesitate to suggest that you allow Google scores to decide your choice...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 40 mins (2006-12-20 15:09:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Re your note below: Take care with the double and single consonants, Stephen!
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2006-12-20 16:05:04 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
RLRG is right: who would have thought that there were so many hotels with the name 'Alamanni' in Italy?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2006-12-20 16:50:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
There doesn't appear to be any effective KudoZ mechanism for responding to comments posted to other answers, e.g. 'As a student of history I...' or '...sounds more destructive'.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2006-12-20 17:13:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Re 'by inference': Not necessarily. Some of the voting above (one in particular) may be more to do with the 'raid/incursion' issue. There is also one piece of nostalgic reverie plus two comment-free agrees. Set against this, you have three people very firmly committing to 'e'.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2006-12-20 18:29:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Two more now...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2006-12-20 23:37:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
One further point (though at 9:2 this may now be a lost cause): I would not use the noun form 'Alemanni' (let alone 'Alamanni') to qualify 'raids' or 'incursions' because there is an accepted adjective form, 'Alemannic'. (Cf the 'Spaniard Armada'.) My own preference would be to invert the the construction and link the two nouns with 'by'.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day6 hrs (2006-12-21 21:25:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I’m not sure whether it is wise or seemly to post any further comments (could look rather pathetic in the event that the pithy ‘Alamanni raids’ is declared ‘most helpful answer’ and waltzes off with the points!) but Cassell’s Latin dictionary gives the following: incursio –onis f.(incurro) a running against, clash, onset, collision, attack, raid, invasion.
For ‘Einfall’ Wahrig gives ‘feindl. Vordringen in ein Gebiet’.
Note from asker:
Thanks, I should have searched on the singular "incursion" I guess! I noticed that on the linked page the used the spelling 'Alamanni', any reason to prefer "Alemmanic tribes"? |
Re comments to other answerers: I've had the same problem myself in the past. Usually I've added an "Ask asker" note at the top of the page. I imagine that this is to encourage people to add agree, neutral, or disagree, but obviously that isn't always appropriate. |
Fair point re people specifically voting for 'e' - I'll use that unless lots of folk start shouting for the 'a'. |
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Francis Lee (X)
: incursions or raids; I'm sure historians use both terms
7 mins
|
agree |
Parzival
59 mins
|
Thank you, Walter.
|
|
agree |
Rebecca Garber
: Alemannic is the correct adjective. Incusions imply that the group is going to occupy the area, which did happen in some Rhine areas. Frohes Fest, Andrew
23 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks to everyone that contributed so much information to this question; this also helped in the wider context of the translation. It was a tough call, but in the Andrew's persistent and well backed-up arguments won the day. I couldn't really fault the logic! I also decided on reflection that the average foreign tourist (at whom this text is aimed) would be likely to be unfamiliar with "The Al(e/a)manni", so the addition of 'tribes' adds a bit of further information (notwithstanding the correct adjectival use).
Thanks again all, merry Christmas."
+9
9 mins
Alamanni raids
How about just "raids"?
The Alamanni were continually engaged in conflicts with the Roman Empire. They launched a major invasion of Gaul and northern Italy in 268, when the Romans were forced to denude much of their German frontier of troops in response to a massive invasion of the Goths from the east. Their raids throughout the three parts of Gaul were traumatic: Gregory of Tours (died ca 594) mentions their destructive force at the time of Valerian and Gallienus (253–260), when the Alemanni assembled under their "king", whom he calls Chrocus, who "by the advice, it is said, of his wicked mother, and overran the whole of the Gauls, and destroyed from their foundations all the temples which had been built in ancient times. And coming to Clermont he set on fire, overthrew and destroyed that shrine which they call Vasso Galatae in the Gallic tongue," martyring many Christians (Historia Francorum Book I.32–34). Thus 6th century Gallo-Romans of Gregory's class, surrounded by the ruins of Roman temples and public buildings, attributed the destruction they saw to the plundering raids of the Alemanni.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamanni
The Alamanni were continually engaged in conflicts with the Roman Empire. They launched a major invasion of Gaul and northern Italy in 268, when the Romans were forced to denude much of their German frontier of troops in response to a massive invasion of the Goths from the east. Their raids throughout the three parts of Gaul were traumatic: Gregory of Tours (died ca 594) mentions their destructive force at the time of Valerian and Gallienus (253–260), when the Alemanni assembled under their "king", whom he calls Chrocus, who "by the advice, it is said, of his wicked mother, and overran the whole of the Gauls, and destroyed from their foundations all the temples which had been built in ancient times. And coming to Clermont he set on fire, overthrew and destroyed that shrine which they call Vasso Galatae in the Gallic tongue," martyring many Christians (Historia Francorum Book I.32–34). Thus 6th century Gallo-Romans of Gregory's class, surrounded by the ruins of Roman temples and public buildings, attributed the destruction they saw to the plundering raids of the Alemanni.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamanni
Peer comment(s):
agree |
raptisi
7 mins
|
agree |
Francis Lee (X)
: incursions/raids: is there a difference?
8 mins
|
agree |
BrigitteHilgner
: As a student of history I am all in favour of "Alamanni" and "Alamannic" (not Alemannic).
25 mins
|
agree |
Paul Cohen
: Those were the days!
57 mins
|
agree |
DDM
1 hr
|
agree |
Darin Fitzpatrick
: Raids sound more destructive.
1 hr
|
agree |
John Jory
: Encyclopedia Britannica and Websters both give 'Alemanni' with reference to the alternative spelling.
3 hrs
|
The OED uses Alemanni and Alemannic. I think I would use those spellings too.
|
|
agree |
Thomas Bollmann
4 hrs
|
agree |
writeaway
4 hrs
|
Discussion
Raid = a short sudden attack, usually by a small group of people
Incursion = a sudden attack on or entry into a place, especially across a border
http://dictionary.cambridge.org