Off topic: "What the Gospel of Judas really says" Thread poster: Milena Bosco (X)
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Milena Bosco (X) 
Italy
Local time: 06:56
English to Italian
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Hi all,
I just came accross this interesting article about the "Gospel of Judas".
I hope you will enjoy it as much as I did.
I love the stress put on the importance of cooperation and how the need for a "story" might wind up creating a fluke, which, still at this point, has not been reported enough by the media.
... See more Hi all,
I just came accross this interesting article about the "Gospel of Judas".
I hope you will enjoy it as much as I did.
I love the stress put on the importance of cooperation and how the need for a "story" might wind up creating a fluke, which, still at this point, has not been reported enough by the media.
Enjoy!
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/opinion/02iht-edeconick.1.8558749.html
[Edited at 2011-02-22 11:56 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | According to Islamic data and belief Judas was crucified | Feb 22, 2011 |
Judas was crucified instead of Christ.
The issue of the crucifixion and death of Jesus (Isa) is important to Muslims as they believe that Jesus will return before the end of time (according to many current Islamic scholars he has already returned). Muslims believe Jesus was not crucified, but was raised bodily to heaven by God. That is why Moslems do not use the symbol cross although Islam sees Jesus as one of five great prophets — others being Noah, Moses and Abraham — sent to ... See more Judas was crucified instead of Christ.
The issue of the crucifixion and death of Jesus (Isa) is important to Muslims as they believe that Jesus will return before the end of time (according to many current Islamic scholars he has already returned). Muslims believe Jesus was not crucified, but was raised bodily to heaven by God. That is why Moslems do not use the symbol cross although Islam sees Jesus as one of five great prophets — others being Noah, Moses and Abraham — sent to earth to announce the message of God (Allah).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus'_death ▲ Collapse
| | | | Milena Bosco (X)
Italy
Local time: 06:56
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you, it's interesting how the main monotheistic religions meet, somehow.
Actually, I was not at all referring to the "religious" content of the article (I would leave that to more knowledgeable people) but to the "linguistic" one and to how a few "small" mistakes can deeply alter a text.
Have a great day.
Milena
| | | | Vitals
Lithuania
Local time: 07:56
English to Lithuanian
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| Have you read the very text? | Feb 22, 2011 |
Hi, Milena.
Interesting to see such a topic on Proz.com
To me personally, it was more interesting to read the very script that they call "Gospel of Judas" (available somewhere on the web, I think I read it in English), than to read the article. Whether it is authentic or not, it clearly has disprepancies and disagreements with the 66 inspired books of the Bible. And even though it does not seem to be real, it was still interesting to read the character of Judas being p... See more Hi, Milena.
Interesting to see such a topic on Proz.com
To me personally, it was more interesting to read the very script that they call "Gospel of Judas" (available somewhere on the web, I think I read it in English), than to read the article. Whether it is authentic or not, it clearly has disprepancies and disagreements with the 66 inspired books of the Bible. And even though it does not seem to be real, it was still interesting to read the character of Judas being portrayed there thru "his" writings. He was once an important figure walking among the disciples of Jesus Christ, so in a way it would be interesting to read the writings of a man who was a hair short of great things.
Have a nice day!
VS ▲ Collapse
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 06:56
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| The value of peer review, and of joint effort | Feb 22, 2011 |
Milena Bosco wrote:
I love the stress put on the importance of cooperation and how the need for a "story" might wind up creating a fluke, which, still at this point, has not been reported enough by the media.
I think a key paragraph is this:
That said, I think the big problem is that National Geographic wanted an exclusive. So it required its scholars to sign nondisclosure statements, to not discuss the text with other experts before publication. The best scholarship is done when life-sized photos of each page of a new manuscript are published before a translation, allowing experts worldwide to share information as they independently work through the text.
I have read somewhere that this was also one of the differences between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadin texts. The Dead Sea Scrolls were not published in facsimile until long after it had been discovered, so very few people had access to it and few could do their own translations of it. The Nag Hammadin, on the other hand, was published very shortly after it had been discovered, and this enabled different scholars to produce various translations of it and study it in detail.
The translation of the "Gospel of Judas Iscariot" suffered so many errors because there was no (or very little) peer review.
On the other hand, it was surprising that the translators made so many translation errors, since many of their errors contradict what is known about typical gnosist writings anyway. Surely some what what they translated should have set off some alarm bells ringing for them... unless of course they were scholars of the language but not of the genre.
TurkishEnglishTranslator wrote:
According to Islamic data and belief Judas was crucified ... instead of Christ.
Yes, but how does that affect or relate to the translation errors in this manuscript? The fact (or belief) that Judas (and not Christ) was crucified is no excuse for sloppy translation, surely.
[Edited at 2011-02-22 15:20 GMT]
| | | | | The shocker: Judas didn't betray Jesus | Feb 22, 2011 |
Samuel Murray wrote: TurkishEnglishTranslator wrote:
According to Islamic data and belief Judas was crucified ... instead of Christ. Yes, but how does that affect or relate to the translation errors in this manuscript? The fact (or belief) that Judas (and not Christ) was crucified is no excuse for sloppy translation, surely. [Edited at 2011-02-22 15:20 GMT]
The translation of National Geographic Society with title"The shocker: Judas didn't betray Jesus." is also wrong in terms of context as the author April D. DeConick states by saying "Judas is not only no hero, he is a demon." This issue was stated in Koran 1400 years ago. I just wanted to let you know this fact additionally. In other words the person respected currently on the crucifix is Judas according to Islamic data. Most probably this is the secret that Knights Templar found in Solomon's Temple and blackmailed Papacy till they were massacred thereby.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 06:56
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Novel approach to quality control | Feb 22, 2011 |
TurkishEnglishTranslator wrote: Samuel Murray wrote: TurkishEnglishTranslator wrote:
According to Islamic data and belief Judas was crucified ... instead of Christ. Yes, but how does that ... relate to the translation errors in this manuscript? The translation of National Geographic Society ... is also wrong in terms of context as the author ... states [something that contradicts the Koran].
This is a very interesting approach to translation quality analysis, Turkish. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the quality of the translation should be judged not in terms of how close it is to the source text but to how close it is to the truth (as perceived by the translator).
In other words, if the translator believes that John Smith was a hero, and the source text says "John Smith was not a hero", it would be a translation error to translate it as "John Smith was not a hero", and it would be a good translation to translate it as "John Smith was a hero".
I'm not suggesting that this is an invalid approach, although it does seem rather novel. Did you learn this approach at college, or can you tell me who is the author or originator of this approach to translation quality analysis?
| | | | | The word "daimon" as spirit which actually should be "demon" | Feb 23, 2011 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
This is a very interesting approach to translation quality analysis, Turkish. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the quality of the translation should be judged not in terms of how close it is to the source text but to how close it is to the truth (as perceived by the translator).
In other words, if the translator believes that John Smith was a hero, and the source text says "John Smith was not a hero", it would be a translation error to translate it as "John Smith was not a hero", and it would be a good translation to translate it as "John Smith was a hero".
I'm not suggesting that this is an invalid approach, although it does seem rather novel. Did you learn this approach at college, or can you tell me who is the author or originator of this approach to translation quality analysis?
April D. DeConick, the translator mentions that after re-translating the society's transcription of the Coptic text, she has found that the actual meaning is vastly different. I never said the translation should be judged not in terms of its truthness but translation of National Geographic the word "daimon" as spirit which actually should be "demon" has also changed the context of the translation. And did you learn this approach of critisim at college or can you tell me who is the author or originator of this critisim approach?
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| Sensationalism? | Feb 23, 2011 |
Hello,
The National Geographic may have been more interested in a sensational scoop than solid scholarly work. That seems like the easiest way to explain what happened.
Jorge Luis Borges' "Tres versiones de Judas" ("Three versions of Judas") may have provided a more important reference text for the "translation" than Gnostic texts of the first centuries CE. This a fascinating and fairly intuitive interpretation of the Biblical story and has surely already been formulated in nu... See more Hello,
The National Geographic may have been more interested in a sensational scoop than solid scholarly work. That seems like the easiest way to explain what happened.
Jorge Luis Borges' "Tres versiones de Judas" ("Three versions of Judas") may have provided a more important reference text for the "translation" than Gnostic texts of the first centuries CE. This a fascinating and fairly intuitive interpretation of the Biblical story and has surely already been formulated in numerous other places, apparently also in an Islamic tradition.
Judas as the ultimate servant of the Christian plan of Salvation: willing not only to go down in history as a really bad dude, but also to spend all Eternity in Hell - for the sake of humanity's Salvation.
It seems to me like nothing more than a case of bad journalism, which, I might add, I thoroughly enjoyed at the time.
Sincerely,
Michael ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 06:56
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Three comments | Feb 23, 2011 |
TurkishEnglishTranslator wrote:
April D. DeConick, the translator mentions that after re-translating the society's transcription of the Coptic text, she has found that the actual meaning is vastly different. ... [the] translation [by] National Geographic [of] the word "daimon" as spirit ... actually should be "demon" [, and this] has also changed the context of the translation.
If by "context" you mean "meaning", then I think I understand what you're saying, thanks. My apologies for misinterpreting your posts. I thought you meant that what the Koran says about Judas was somehow relevant to what the gnostic author thought of Judas.
Vitals wrote:
And even though it does not seem to be real, it was still interesting to read the character of Judas being portrayed there thru "his" writings.
The Gospel of Judas is "his" writings in the same way as the Books of Moses is "his" writings. I find it interesting that the English world insist on using the expression "X of Y" for naming manuscripts despite the ambiguities that it creates. The "Gospel of Judas" should more rightly be named the "Gospel dedicated to Judas" or the "Gospel about Judas". By calling it "Gospel of Judas", too many people assume that the manuscript claims to have been written by Judas.
Milena Bosco wrote:
Actually, I was ... referring ... to the "linguistic" [content] and to how a few "small" mistakes can deeply alter a text.
It is sometimes interesting how a critical bit of information changes one's view of something. I myself could not understand the DeConick's comment because her comment was about the translation of a Greek word, and the Gospel of Judas wasn't written in Greek. It is only after extensive googling that I discovered that the Gospel of Judas contains a loan word from Greek, namely "daimon", which in the 2nd century CE meant "spirit".
I'm really not qualified to comment on the translation from the Coptic, but it would seem to me rather rash to base one's opinion about the meaning of a text solely on the choice of a word. I have also read National Geographic's English translation of the text and I see nothing there that should indicate that "demon" is a more appropriate translation that simply "spirit". DeConick's own translation is not available on the web, unfortunately.
I did find a review that shows portions of the text side by side, though:
http://www.bookreviews.org/pdf/6163_6589.pdf
Another piece of critical information that I do not have is whether DeConick did her translation from the facsimile edition or from the transcribed edition of the Coptic text.
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