| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Off topic: Patience - Style control Thread poster: Paula Borges
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Paula Borges 
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:21
Member (2010)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Lately I've been getting a lot of clients sending me "feedback". It seems that despite not being profesionals or even native speakers of the target language, the ultimate proofreader is the client.
Even if no styleguides are sent previously, they are often requesting explanations "why did you choose this word instead of that word? why is it like this and not like that" (a.k.a. "why can you not read my mind and guess what I prefer?" or "why can you not think like a non-native speake... See more Lately I've been getting a lot of clients sending me "feedback". It seems that despite not being profesionals or even native speakers of the target language, the ultimate proofreader is the client.
Even if no styleguides are sent previously, they are often requesting explanations "why did you choose this word instead of that word? why is it like this and not like that" (a.k.a. "why can you not read my mind and guess what I prefer?" or "why can you not think like a non-native speaker?")
It seems to be happening more and more. Once in a while an agency will even complain about something, but if you ask to see the final version the client has ADDED all these errors. You warn them - this shouldn't be published because of this and that , but the agencies seems to think the client is always the expert.
A while ago someone complained that my text was too "fancy" and "native-like" rather than literal and mediocre (I swear). The client wanted to personally discuss this with me on the phone, as he was a British man who knew some Spanish, so he clearly knew everything there is to know about Brazilian Portuguese. The most bizarre thing is that the agency actually gave him my phone number. Later on, they said "we apologise and we understand but we gotta make our clients happy" (a.k.a. "blaming you for everything").
Non-native receptionists and secretaries are doing the final proofreading these days. One of my colleagues translated an entire magazine, she was so happy when her copy finally arrived! Only to see the text was beyond unaceptable. When she called the company they said "oh, right we asked an intern to make a few changes..."
Nobody believes me on this but I once had a client who use machine translation and then sent me this really rude email asking why my translation wasn't more similar to the results he got (machine translation is his standard quality check).
How do we remain zen? Any special techniques?
Share your stories. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tony M
France
Local time: 02:21
Member
French to English
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Know what you mean! | Apr 19, 2011 |
It's rare that I have a customer complain, so when they do, I always sit up and take notice.
On one occasion, a new-ish client I hadn't done a lot of work for came back to me to say that my style was unacceptable — I looked at the 'corrections' their proof-reader had made, and realized at once s/he was not a native EN speaker — s/he had introduced errors that no native-speaker would have been capable of making! I soon shot that one down in flames!
On another occasio... See more It's rare that I have a customer complain, so when they do, I always sit up and take notice.
On one occasion, a new-ish client I hadn't done a lot of work for came back to me to say that my style was unacceptable — I looked at the 'corrections' their proof-reader had made, and realized at once s/he was not a native EN speaker — s/he had introduced errors that no native-speaker would have been capable of making! I soon shot that one down in flames!
On another occasion, one of my most beautifully crafted texts was ripped apart by a non-native-speaker proof reader; from the mistakes she made, I was able to tell the customer that she was a) under 30, b) a native Dutch speaker, and c) educated in the USA. In the face of my uncanny clairvoyance (right on all points!), my original translation was re-instated in its entirety and the proof-reader sacked!
The last occasion was even more mind-blowing; I got a furious phone call from one of my best customers, saying that they were on the point of losing one of their best customers because of my bad translation! They asked if they could put me in direct contact with the final end customer to sort it out, and after a lot of to-ing and fro-ing and arguments, I finally got her to send me the faulty text — only to find it was not my translaiton at all, but something that had been cobbled together in-house from a similar document, previously translated by someone else! It had become a real case of Chinese whispers, between myself, the translation agency, their customer the advertising agency, and the poor end customer (as it happens, a very exclusive luxury hotel). There was much apologising, and the ad agency went away with a flea in their ear — I don't think they'll risk getting their secretary to try translation again! But just look how one stupid error nearly cost two people to lose a customer?! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Andy Lemminger
Canada
Local time: 18:21
Member (2002)
English to German
Too funny but I can relate to both posts.
One time a very big agency complained and I found out that they hadn't used my translation at all but some other file (I never found out how that was possible at all).
Another time an agency "specialized" in financial texts after each job kept asking about the definition of certain terms I used and/or terms mentioned in the source and how they are related to each other (of course without paying extra money), as if it is part of ... See more Too funny but I can relate to both posts.
One time a very big agency complained and I found out that they hadn't used my translation at all but some other file (I never found out how that was possible at all).
Another time an agency "specialized" in financial texts after each job kept asking about the definition of certain terms I used and/or terms mentioned in the source and how they are related to each other (of course without paying extra money), as if it is part of my obligation to educate them in Finance.
I stay rather calm because I can tell myself that I choose to have these customers (or not to have them), while my poor colleagues who work in-house don't have any choice. You can bet that they have to deal with similar issues and they cannot move on as easily. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Paula Borges
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:21
Member (2010)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Tony M wrote:
It's rare that I have a customer complain, so when they do, I always sit up and take notice.
On one occasion, a new-ish client I hadn't done a lot of work for came back to me to say that my style was unacceptable — I looked at the 'corrections' their proof-reader had made, and realized at once s/he was not a native EN speaker — s/he had introduced errors that no native-speaker would have been capable of making! I soon shot that one down in flames!
On another occasion, one of my most beautifully crafted texts was ripped apart by a non-native-speaker proof reader; from the mistakes she made, I was able to tell the customer that she was a) under 30, b) a native Dutch speaker, and c) educated in the USA. In the face of my uncanny clairvoyance (right on all points!), my original translation was re-instated in its entirety and the proof-reader sacked!
The last occasion was even more mind-blowing; I got a furious phone call from one of my best customers, saying that they were on the point of losing one of their best customers because of my bad translation! They asked if they could put me in direct contact with the final end customer to sort it out, and after a lot of to-ing and fro-ing and arguments, I finally got her to send me the faulty text — only to find it was not my translaiton at all, but something that had been cobbled together in-house from a similar document, previously translated by someone else! It had become a real case of Chinese whispers, between myself, the translation agency, their customer the advertising agency, and the poor end customer (as it happens, a very exclusive luxury hotel). There was much apologising, and the ad agency went away with a flea in their ear — I don't think they'll risk getting their secretary to try translation again! But just look how one stupid error nearly cost two people to lose a customer?!
First case - what did you say to that?
Last one - something similar happened to me. Except it was the CEO of a major company, not a native speaker in neither the source nor the target language. Once the PM manager got the call, he trusted the client completely and did not bother checking before accusing me of having outsourced the assignment. It was difficult for me to get hold of the final text, point out errors, clarify everything. But guess which version was published?
My fear is that once it is published and someone complains (it will happen) someone will find a way to blame the agency or even the poor translator.
Usually, it's just a case of a client complaining about about the translator not being able to read their mind and guess their favourite words.
I understand these are part of the work but I'm running out of polite answers and/or patience. I'm guessing they think "they are translators, surely they do have a lot of time to spare"????
If the client is such an expert, why did he/she bother hiring professionals in the first place?
Other companies think they are being smart and call the agency asking for their proofreading rates, except that when you get the text it is machine or secretary-translated, it is hard to tell which one is the worst.
[Edited at 2011-04-19 18:19 GMT]
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imatahan
Brazil
Local time: 21:21
English to Portuguese
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It annoys me, because they've changed my translation and put wrong terms instead...
| | | | | Being questioned | Apr 19, 2011 |
I recently had the experience of a non-native (politely, I must say), "questioning" some of my choices.
Our difference (apart from our native languages) lay mostly in her being very faithful to the source text (and the company commissioning the translation) and me being faithful to the tourist who would be reading and trying to understand the "cultural" underpinnings of the text.
I have often encountered this kind of blind loyalty to source texts that is ultimately un... See more I recently had the experience of a non-native (politely, I must say), "questioning" some of my choices.
Our difference (apart from our native languages) lay mostly in her being very faithful to the source text (and the company commissioning the translation) and me being faithful to the tourist who would be reading and trying to understand the "cultural" underpinnings of the text.
I have often encountered this kind of blind loyalty to source texts that is ultimately unjustifiable (except where there is a prestigious author). Isn't the point of translation usually to inform readers in a way that is meaningful to them? Or to persuade them to read (to the end), buy, visit, etc something?
It is difficult to change mindsets, but, in this case, I took a few examples and explained why her suggestions wouldn't work. There really wasn't much more I could do, except simply not work for her anymore. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Paula Borges
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:21
Member (2010)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Yes, that seems to be the most common problem. I often come across end-clients who are too concerned with being "loyal" to the original text while I am focused on making it natural and understandable. They will question how come words and sentences have been changed, even the most obvious things like time ( the 7 pm-19h in Brazil usually drives them crazy). Sometimes they even question how come idioms and expressions were not translated word by word.
I can understand all that. Howev... See more Yes, that seems to be the most common problem. I often come across end-clients who are too concerned with being "loyal" to the original text while I am focused on making it natural and understandable. They will question how come words and sentences have been changed, even the most obvious things like time ( the 7 pm-19h in Brazil usually drives them crazy). Sometimes they even question how come idioms and expressions were not translated word by word.
I can understand all that. However, experienced project managers taking those requests seriously and not taking the time to explain anything to their clients is what gets to me. They will be so quick to blame the translator for everything - not realizing that sticking up for themselves and the quality of their translators is essential for their image.
It's funny I guess... I can't remember how many times I've been asked "why is the word 'atualmente' there? We didn't originally write 'actually'" ('atualmente' means 'currently' in Portuguese). That is a very simple thing to solve, the PM only has to use a dictionary. But instead of sticking up for their work, they will say: "sorry, bad translator, I'll have a go at him/her?" - How does that make the client trust them?
The 'client is always right policy' may not be a good alternative in this case. By doing that, agencies make it look like they don't know their own business, they take no responsibility, they employ bad translators and ultimately, like they don't know any more about language than the client does. After all, people need translation services because they cannot do it themselves, if you keep telling them they're right when they're wrong they might eventually think they do not need you at all.
Also, I'd like to imagine that an in-house translator/proofreader/project manager has approved the work before sending the final version to the client. In that case, once again, how does it make sense to come back to you with silly questions weeks later?
To the point a client recently asked me "for the next assignments try to be less natural and more literal, as that is the client's preferred style" - How absurd does that sound? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Influence of quality management system | Apr 19, 2011 |
Among many industries nowadays, the international [ISO] quality management system and standard are used to set quality of translation. This makes "customer is right" view very strong while translators were taken as experts in old days. I meet many non-natives or natives residing in foreign countries who complain about translation. I also do QA process answers to many jobs [and back-translated jobs]. I observe that this phenomenon is a new trend in translation jobs.
Soonthon Lupkitaro
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Paula Borges
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:21
Member (2010)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | What about this? | Apr 20, 2011 |
You tell an agency a million times you're not interested in using/buying their new experimental CAT tool, you already have your own, no thanks. They say fine and keep sending you work, but every couple of weeks someone acts surprised: "how come you're not using the program we told you to use?"
| | | | | Zen - or at least relief - read this forum... | May 29, 2011 |
Dear Paula et al,
just stumbled onto this forum on a completely different quest (re. discussion with cocky teenager re. our profession being obsolete in a few years...). I should be working but I just want to say that reading all your comments and hearing about your experiences makes me feel much better about a few large projects I've had to endure recently. The use of "reviewers" who are not native speakers and are quite happy to go gung-ho all over your translation, the use of se... See more Dear Paula et al,
just stumbled onto this forum on a completely different quest (re. discussion with cocky teenager re. our profession being obsolete in a few years...). I should be working but I just want to say that reading all your comments and hearing about your experiences makes me feel much better about a few large projects I've had to endure recently. The use of "reviewers" who are not native speakers and are quite happy to go gung-ho all over your translation, the use of several of these "reviewers" who change things back and forth and a lot of wasted time and to-ing and fro-ing just to, in most cases, bring the translation back to what my colleagues and me put in the first place, the insistence to keep using a blatantly wrong phrase/punctuation/whatever, because that is what they've always used, and on and on...
And I can add to the list of woes - the use of these wonderful systems for end-to-end management of projects, that nobody, let alone the agencies and their poor staff, seem to really understand and that are harder to manage than nappychanging, a lot slower and which, unlike nappychanging, only get more complicated the more you use them?
Oh woe. Paula, I'd say that next time you feel like you'd rather blow your computer up than getting another "client additional changes" email from company xxx, go to this forum and read about the suffering of your fellow translators. Doesn't make anything better but at least you are not alone and some of us might even make you laugh. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 08:21
Chinese to English
| At least my clients tell me they want unreadable rubbish before I start | May 30, 2011 |
I sympathise with the experiences. Clients where I live are much better: before I even start a translation, they'll often ask for a meeting and tell me, "We don't want very native English"; or "we see from your sample that you translate into shorter sentences for clarity; there's no need for so much clarity". You may think I'm joking, but those two examples are direct (translated) quotes.
An awful lot of translation theory is entirely predicated on the idea that company or individual in th... See more I sympathise with the experiences. Clients where I live are much better: before I even start a translation, they'll often ask for a meeting and tell me, "We don't want very native English"; or "we see from your sample that you translate into shorter sentences for clarity; there's no need for so much clarity". You may think I'm joking, but those two examples are direct (translated) quotes.
An awful lot of translation theory is entirely predicated on the idea that company or individual in the target culture commissions the translation. The reality is that you often have people in the source country as your client, and language/cultural issues get hairy very quickly! ▲ Collapse
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Paula Borges wrote:
It seems to be happening more and more. Once in a while an agency will even complain about something, but if you ask to see the final version the client has ADDED all these errors. You warn them - this shouldn't be published because of this and that , but the agencies seems to think the client is always the expert.
Unfortunately I cannot share a solution for this. This is what our market looks like at the moment, and I have the same situation: one company loves my translations, but their direct competitor in the exact same market segment (for which I happen to translate via another agency) keeps sending "corrections" with mistakes (typos, missing words, double spaces...) introduced every other sentence. I can only hope that in due time I can grasp their wishes and keep translating for them. They clearly don't want corrections, but changes in the text because they would have translated it differently.
To me there are two facts we must remember in our profession:
A) Target quality is not what we as translators think is a quality translation, but whatever the customer had in mind about it. We can only succeed if we supply what the customer thinks is good quality. The perfect customer is found when our concept of quality matches theirs...
B) The customer (I mean their subsidiary in the target country/region of the translation) knows best about their terminology, advertising, communications, and style. Even if their terminology and style are far from adequate, they are what works for them in their market, and we must accept them. We also need to try to utilise the "corrected" materials with the use of termbases, very well kept translation memories, and careful study of all feedback and validated materials received, so that the next translation is closer to what they want.
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Dave Bindon
Greece
Local time: 03:21
Greek to English
In memoriam | I don't have any experience... | May 30, 2011 |
...of complaints (yet!), but I do understand the potential for complaints (about style etc.). Therefore, I try to clarify the client's requirements and/or preferences in advance.
One of my favourite clients is a translator herself, which means she really understands the difficulty of keeping all the clients happy all of the time. So she tells me, on a job-by-job basis, what she's looking for. Sometimes she asks me to cut complex 20-line Greek sentences into manageable, comprehens... See more ...of complaints (yet!), but I do understand the potential for complaints (about style etc.). Therefore, I try to clarify the client's requirements and/or preferences in advance.
One of my favourite clients is a translator herself, which means she really understands the difficulty of keeping all the clients happy all of the time. So she tells me, on a job-by-job basis, what she's looking for. Sometimes she asks me to cut complex 20-line Greek sentences into manageable, comprehensible units and to use plain English. On other occasions, however, she may ask me to preserve the complexity of the original and use 'heretofore' and 'notwithstanding' etc as much as possible (as if the end-client will have more respect for the translator if he has to struggle to understand the translation!).
On Friday I found myself in a new situation. First job for a new client. It soon became apparent, for several reasons, that the source text was itself a translation (and not a great one). I immediately contacted my client to ask her if I was back-translating and what she wanted from me: a direct translation of the source, or a corrected version annotated to show where the source was grammatically incorrect, factually incorrect, or deviated from the requirements of the relevant EU Directives. She denied that it was a back-translation but opted for the corrected/annotated version. Today she contacted me to say that the end-client was delighted with the result [she didn't tell me the client's reaction when they found out that the source text - which has been in use in Greece for 18 months or so - refers to the breast-feeding of foetuses, and completely reorganises the anatomy of the brain!!!]. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Paula Borges
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:21
Member (2010)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
[quote]Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
B) The customer (I mean their subsidiary in the target country/region of the translation) knows best about their terminology, advertising, communications, and style. Even if their terminology and style are far from adequate, they are what works for them in their market, and we must accept them. We also need to try to utilise the "corrected" materials with the use of termbases, very well kept translation memories, and careful study of all feedback and validated materials received, so that the next translation is closer to what they want.
Exactly. But in my case I'm normally chosen because the target region is Brazil. Despite that, agencies are always employing European Portuguese proofreaders and sometimes even native English speakers who happen to know some Spanish (!!!). So imagine my frustration trying to explain to people who don't speak Brazilian Portuguese and, more often than not, have never been to Brazil why they should trust me over themselves.
I understand the idea of doing what they want, but I can't deliver something that is clearly wrong and won't even be understood by the target audience. Even if that's what they want.
[Edited at 2011-05-30 18:42 GMT]
| | | | Natalia Pedrosa (X)
Local time: 02:21
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Unbelievable | May 30, 2011 |
Just last week I was asked to translate terms such as Clapham Junction, Croydon, and so on. My reply to the client was not nice at all.
Hold in arms!
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