| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Proofreading vs. translation editing/retranslation: sharpening the distinction Thread poster: Robert Forstag
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Balasubramaniam L. 
India
Local time: 13:44
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | Can't but agree | Oct 9, 2006 |
Having myself been a victim of this play of definitions once or twice, I whole-heartedly agree with Robert's suggestion that this site should make it mandatory for outsourcers to properly classify the jobs they post as "proofing", "translation review" or "editing".
But I doubt that this will happen overnight.
As a precautionary measure in the meanwhile we should perhaps charge for "proofing" type of jobs on an hourly basis, rather than on the basis of number of words in... See more Having myself been a victim of this play of definitions once or twice, I whole-heartedly agree with Robert's suggestion that this site should make it mandatory for outsourcers to properly classify the jobs they post as "proofing", "translation review" or "editing".
But I doubt that this will happen overnight.
As a precautionary measure in the meanwhile we should perhaps charge for "proofing" type of jobs on an hourly basis, rather than on the basis of number of words in the document.
This will be a fairer reflection of the actual effort that goes into servicing such documents.
Another suggestion is to require a small sample of the document to be pasted mandatorily on the job page for all proofing/editing jobs. This will help potential responders to evaluate the text without entering into a lengthy and time-consuming email conversation with the job poster to get to see a sample of the document. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jande
Australia
Local time: 18:14
Danish to English
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| There's proofreading and then there's proofreading | Oct 9, 2006 |
I agree there is proofreading and proofreading.
One thing is writing something in a language and getting someone who speaks the same language to proofread it for errors. Normally doesn't take that much time.
The other thing is translating something and then getting someone who speaks both languages to proofread it. Can take longer than translating the original in the first place.
You learn quickly that these seemingly similar activities are two totally ... See more I agree there is proofreading and proofreading.
One thing is writing something in a language and getting someone who speaks the same language to proofread it for errors. Normally doesn't take that much time.
The other thing is translating something and then getting someone who speaks both languages to proofread it. Can take longer than translating the original in the first place.
You learn quickly that these seemingly similar activities are two totally different things, but the pay is the same. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tony M
France
Local time: 10:14
Member
French to English
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | My own unhappy experiences | Oct 9, 2006 |
I would like to start by saying that I have excellent relationships with a number of regular, long-standing clients, who do genuinely give me what I consider to be 'proofing' jobs that only require meticulous checking and light polishing. These are fair and honest people with whom I enjoy cordial and enriching relationships.
I have also had less happy experiences with agencies from whom I have subsequently refused work.
On some occasions, I have been offered work with w... See more I would like to start by saying that I have excellent relationships with a number of regular, long-standing clients, who do genuinely give me what I consider to be 'proofing' jobs that only require meticulous checking and light polishing. These are fair and honest people with whom I enjoy cordial and enriching relationships.
I have also had less happy experiences with agencies from whom I have subsequently refused work.
On some occasions, I have been offered work with what I considered to be too short a deadline and/or too low a rate to be able to do a proper job; a few days later, with the deadline long past, I have been asked to do an emergency rescue job, as the PM has suspected there was something "not quite right". In many cases, this has meant completely re-translating a document that I had refused to do in 4 days in just 36hrs, and THEN be expected to accept peanuts for doing it!
In fairness to my honest clients, it must be said that when re-translation has been necessary, they have often refused to pay the malcreant (or only a part of their fee), and have topped up my proofing fee to something nearer a translation rate.
When you consider that the proof-reader is in fact the last and probably only quality-control step, it seems to me ridiculous to pay a laughably LOW rate for this work; at best, pay a hack translator using CAT to do a first-pass job as cheaply as possible, in order to save time for the 'reviser' who is paid a decent rate to polish off in order to produce a professional, quality translation.
When I accept a proofing job (which by and large I now only do for existing customers who also give me translation work), I make a point of doing a check early on, and advising the customer if I feel the quality is so poor that it is going to involve more than mere proofing. They can then choose, either to pay me a proper rate to re-translate it, or not. Usually, by this time, the deadline is already past, they are desperate, and know that I am about the only person who will be to come up with the goods, and so have little choice in the matter.
What I do not do is complete the job and only then tell the customer, as that really is not fair on them.
I had a document the other day that had clearly been done by 2 different translators: the first, with an excellent command of FR, but insufficient kinowledge of EN to make it sound natural; later in the document, it switched voer to someone with an excellent command of EN, but who had made quite major errors in comprehension of the FR. That made for bizarre editing, and the PM did have the grace to admit that when I had first refused the job, they had had no choice bu to split it between 2 people. But the end result was that the job came out over-budget, my stress levels were increased — and the final result was a rushed job that probably wasn't as polished as it would have been if I'd done it in the first place.
Most of my regulars fortunately realize that far from being high, my rates actually save them money, as very often they do not need to pay again to have my worked proofed / checked. They know that I work for a finished-quality product right from the start, and don't rely on the safety net of a skilled proffer to get me out of trouble.
Why, I even corrected one simply appalling job once where the original translator (needless to say, she didn't get paid!) actually had the cheek to proffer as an excuse "Well, I knew you were going to have it proofed, so I didn't bother too much"!
As you may gather, this is a subject about which I feel very strongly! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Steffen Walter
Germany
Local time: 10:14
Member (2002)
English to German
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| Slight clarification, Robert | Oct 9, 2006 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
I *do* have a problem with posters misrepresenting such work as "proofreading", and with proz.com being a party to such misrepresentation.
By definition, ProZ.com is not, and cannot be, a party to such "misrepresentation", as you termed it, since the site just provides the venue for outsourcers to post such jobs but is not involved in the details (and has thus no knowledge pertaining to the nature or quality of any particular job).
Having said that, I fully agree with the distinctions you made in terms of proofreading, review, and comprehensive editing. I guess we would all be better off in this respect if we continued educating our (agency) customers following your lines of thinking.
Steffen
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Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 04:14
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Reply to Dusty | Oct 9, 2006 |
Thanks to Balasubramaniam, Jande and Dusty for replying to my posts. It is abundantly evident that I have plenty of company when it comes to having been misled by disaster relief efforts masquerading as proofing jobs.
Below, I offer comments on portions of Dusty's post:
Dusty wrote:
I would like to start by saying that I have excellent relationships with a number of regular, long-standing clients, who do genuinely give me what I consider to be 'proof... See more Thanks to Balasubramaniam, Jande and Dusty for replying to my posts. It is abundantly evident that I have plenty of company when it comes to having been misled by disaster relief efforts masquerading as proofing jobs.
Below, I offer comments on portions of Dusty's post:
Dusty wrote:
I would like to start by saying that I have excellent relationships with a number of regular, long-standing clients, who do genuinely give me what I consider to be 'proofing' jobs that only require meticulous checking and light polishing. These are fair and honest people with whom I enjoy cordial and enriching relationships.
Comment:
This is precisely what proofing should be in the context of translation: checking over a well-written document to correct the occasional stray error that may have escaped the editing process.
Dusty wrote:
On some occasions, I have been offered work with what I considered to be too short a deadline and/or too low a rate to be able to do a proper job; a few days later, with the deadline long past, I have been asked to do an emergency rescue job, as the PM has suspected there was something "not quite right". In many cases, this has meant completely re-translating a document that I had refused to do in 4 days in just 36hrs, and THEN be expected to accept peanuts for doing it!
Comment:
Lowball offers for difficult work with tight deadlines (will this work as a tagline?) seem to be the hallmark of postings on the proz.com job board, at least within the Spanish-to-English pair. I've pretty much come to expect that any offer labeled URGENT will carry a very low rate. Happily, I have seen a few exceptions to this rule. However I've *never*seen a "rush rate" offered for for a project with a tight deadline.
Dusty wrote:
In fairness to my honest clients, it must be said that when re-translation has been necessary, they have often refused to pay the malcreant (or only a part of their fee), and have topped up my proofing fee to something nearer a translation rate.
Comment:
This is certainly fair to you, especially if these same clients have in the past offered you more highly paid work, and can be expected to do so in the future.
I also think it appropriate for agencies to penalize translators whose work is grossly substandard by paying them a reduced fee (although a better solution would be to have a better selection process in the first place).
Dusty wrote:
When you consider that the proof-reader is in fact the last and probably only quality-control step, it seems to me ridiculous to pay a laughably LOW rate for this work; at best, pay a hack translator using CAT to do a first-pass job as cheaply as possible, in order to save time for the 'reviser' who is paid a decent rate to polish off in order to produce a professional, quality translation.
Comment:
I really don't see the hack/closer method of translation as viable. As you yourself point out, far from making his or her job easier, poor translations create extra work for the competent translator faced with the task of fixing it up.
Dusty wrote:
When I accept a proofing job (which by and large I now only do for existing customers who also give me translation work), I make a point of doing a check early on, and advising the customer if I feel the quality is so poor that it is going to involve more than mere proofing. They can then choose, either to pay me a proper rate to re-translate it, or not. Usually, by this time, the deadline is already past, they are desperate, and know that I am about the only person who will be to come up with the goods, and so have little choice in the matter.
Comment:
The fact that this happens so often seems to show that agencies who attempt to get work done on the cheap either do not have proper procedures in place to quaify the translators they contract with or simply do not care because the lowest possible rate is prized above all else. Of course, we see that such agencies end up paying more in the long run, in terms of both total costs and compromised relationships with end clients because of substandard work product and unmet deadlines (another possible tagline?).
Dusty wrote:
Most of my regulars fortunately realize that far from being high, my rates actually save them money, as very often they do not need to pay again to have my worked proofed / checked. They know that I work for a finished-quality product right from the start, and don't rely on the safety net of a skilled proffer to get me out of trouble.
Comment:
I agree that good work obviates the need for rescue services. However I think it a good idea for "another set of eyes" to review any translation, particularly if it is lengthy. It is easy for even a careful translator to miss words, misplace a comma, not catch a repeated or misspelled word, etc. But such work only involves "proofreading" in the honest sense of the term.
Dusty wrote:
As you may gather, this is a subject about which I feel very strongly!
Comment:
So do I and so do many others. Thank you again for responding.
Bob ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 04:14
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Reply to Steffen | Oct 9, 2006 |
Thank you for your supportive comment and clarification as to proz.com's disclaimer of legal responsibility for jobs board postings.
Legal responsibility aside, I still do not think it in the site's interest to permit the continued blurring of such important distinctions. The site is *primarily* accountable, after all, to its paying customers.
Very best regards,
Bob
[Edited at 2006-10-09 13:42]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 13:44
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Are all "non-natives" bad translators? | Oct 10, 2006 |
Astrid Elke Johnson wrote:
Then at last I understood that it was agencies' way of correcting an awful translation, usually done by a non-native speaker, as cheaply as possible.
Dear Astrid,
I would like to take the risk of inviting Robert's ire upon me for slightly digressing from the main topic of this thread to point out some incorrect assumptions in your above statement.
1. That all non-native translators are necessarily bad translators.
2. Only those who are native to a language should translate in that language.
Both these are fallacious statements and many exceptions to these exist, especially in internationally spread languages like English.
Would you like to reword your sentence as, say, "...usually done by a novice or incompetent translator..."?
[Edited at 2006-10-10 03:22]
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 04:14
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Comment re inadequate translations (re Balasubramaniam's last post) | Oct 10, 2006 |
Balasubramaniam wrote:
I would like to take the risk of inviting Robert's ire upon me for slightly digressing from the main topic of this thread to point out some incorrect assumptions in your above statement.
1. That all non-native translators are necessarily bad translators.
2. Only those who are native to a language should translate in that language.
Both these are fallacious statements and many exceptions to these exist, especially in internationally spread languages like English.
Would you like to reword your sentence as, say, "...usually done by a novice or incompetent translator..."?
[Edited at 2006-10-10 03:22]
Rest assured, Balasubramaniam. I bear you no ill will. 
I have only two comments to make re the exchange between you and Astrid.
1.) I think that it is very rare indeed for someone to be able to translate effectively into a target language in which he or she is not native. Those who think they can do so should submit their work to rigorous review by qualified native speakers of the target language before stating their claim publicly. More likely than not, they will find that they have made quite a few mistakes.
It is important to remember that small mistakes turn out to be not so small when there is one in every other sentence.
Again, there are exceptions, but these seem to be very few and far between.
2.) Poor translations are clearly not limited to the work of non-native translators. Based on my observations in Kudoz and proz.com forum posts, and during the course of "proofreading" several dozen projects, there are quite a few translators who don't have the strongest command of their native tongue. In these cases, we are not talking about errors along the lines of "I make you satisfied with nice translation" (which no native speaker would utter or write) but many lesser errors whose cumulative effect gives a document a more or less amateurish appearance.
Bob
[Edited at 2006-10-10 23:22]
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| "Correcting" as opposed to proof-reading. | Nov 14, 2008 |
I was wondering what people think about having to correct English written by non-native speakers. I work in a social research centre in one of the universities in Barcelona and have to correct this type of document on a regular basis. Needless to say, it is often highly frustrating, however, I am also lucky enough to have access to the authors in order to seek clarification. The researchers write in English in order to improve their English writing skills, however, for obvious reasons, I would m... See more I was wondering what people think about having to correct English written by non-native speakers. I work in a social research centre in one of the universities in Barcelona and have to correct this type of document on a regular basis. Needless to say, it is often highly frustrating, however, I am also lucky enough to have access to the authors in order to seek clarification. The researchers write in English in order to improve their English writing skills, however, for obvious reasons, I would much prefer to directly translate from Spanish or Catalan into English.
If anyone has any advice on this I would be grateful to hear it.
Best wishes to everyone!! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Translating into a language which is not your native language. | Nov 14, 2008 |
I certainly agree with Robert Forstag in most cases, and strongly believe it is much better to always try to ensure translators translate into their native language as the quality is then much higher. However, sometimes, as far as minority languages are concerned, it is impossible to find a native English translator (just as an example) who understands the minority language. Therefore sometimes there is no choice and people who understand the SL well, but are not native English speakers translat... See more I certainly agree with Robert Forstag in most cases, and strongly believe it is much better to always try to ensure translators translate into their native language as the quality is then much higher. However, sometimes, as far as minority languages are concerned, it is impossible to find a native English translator (just as an example) who understands the minority language. Therefore sometimes there is no choice and people who understand the SL well, but are not native English speakers translate into English. If you think about the universities in the UK for example which teach translation courses, the languages they offer on the course are usually German, French, Spanish, and perhaps Greek or Arabic (if you are lucky), although obviously some of the newer EU languages are now being offered. However languages such as Iranian, Mandarin, Wolof....how many native English speakers (for example) are likely to understand those languages, let alone translate from them? I think we, as native English speakers, should learn more minority languages in order to improve this situation. The same can be said for all translators who have any of the most frequently spoken languages in the world as their native language.
Robert Forstag wrote: Balasubramaniam wrote:
I would like to take the risk of inviting Robert's ire upon me for slightly digressing from the main topic of this thread to point out some incorrect assumptions in your above statement.
1. That all non-native translators are necessarily bad translators.
2. Only those who are native to a language should translate in that language.
Both these are fallacious statements and many exceptions to these exist, especially in internationally spread languages like English.
Would you like to reword your sentence as, say, "...usually done by a novice or incompetent translator..."?
[Edited at 2006-10-10 03:22] Rest assured, Balasubramaniam. I bear you no ill will. I have only two comments to make re the exchange between you and Astrid. 1.) I think that it is very rare indeed for someone to be able to translate effectively into a target language in which he or she is not native. Those who think they can do so should submit their work to rigorous review by qualified native speakers of the target language before stating their claim publicly. More likely than not, they will find that they have made quite a few mistakes. It is important to remember that small mistakes turn out to be not so small when there is one in every other sentence. Again, there are exceptions, but these seem to be very few and far between. 2.) Poor translations are clearly not limited to the work of non-native translators. Based on my observations in Kudoz and proz.com forum posts, and during the course of "proofreading" several dozen projects, there are quite a few translators who don't have the strongest command of their native tongue. In these cases, we are not talking about errors along the lines of "I make you satisfied with nice translation" (which no native speaker would utter or write) but many lesser errors whose cumulative effect gives a document a more or less amateurish appearance. Bob [Edited at 2006-10-10 23:22] ▲ Collapse
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