| Puslapiai temoje: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17] > | 這一則新聞值得注意(Localization made progress at ProZ.com) Gijos autorius: Wenjer Leuschel (X)
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jyuan_us 
Jungtinės Amerikos Valstijos
Local time: 22:00
Narys (2005)
iš anglų į kinų
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| Some words for Henry | May 14, 2006 |
Dear Henry,
I assumed you have assinged Kevin the task of doing the localization. But I hope your decision has not been based on some one-sided opinion about the initiative. There are a wave of objection to this but most of the postings were written in Chinese.
As a tanslator and translation manager who has exeprience in both China and USA, I am curious, what is the purpose of this localization? I think it is not very hard to understand that anyone who is related in any... See more Dear Henry,
I assumed you have assinged Kevin the task of doing the localization. But I hope your decision has not been based on some one-sided opinion about the initiative. There are a wave of objection to this but most of the postings were written in Chinese.
As a tanslator and translation manager who has exeprience in both China and USA, I am curious, what is the purpose of this localization? I think it is not very hard to understand that anyone who is related in any way to translation must be able to read English without any difficulty. Why bother to localize it? Can you imagine anyone who does not read English would possibly use this site? I doubt it.
If your judgement is that there is a need to localize it, and this initiative is certain to continue, I do hope that you excercise a formal recruitment procedure to get qualified people to do it. Some of the people who have been loud for this has no localization experience whatsoever. Some would just play a role of translation but if localization credit is given to such a person, you can not totally avoid that Proz is being abused.
I have a thousand negative thinkings about this initiative but I'm busy and won't list them out here in English until I got some free time.
Hope you can see this posting. Thanks.
Jyuan
[Edited at 2006-05-14 09:36] ▲ Collapse
| | | | redred
Kinija
Local time: 11:00
iš anglų į kinų
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PROZ上哪些版板要本地化，译成中文？发现大家驻足率最高的地方是KudoZ，难道要把它译成中文？也就是把问问题和答问题时涉及的内容译成中文。BTW，KudoZ的中文是什么意思？牛津高阶字典和最新版的金山词霸是没这个字的。把Jobs版译成中文？兴许不懂英文的翻译公司老板用GOOGLE能够搜到这里来，这还是很可行的。但是不怕商品的“中国威胁论”在翻译市场再现，怕未来会演绎着一场境外对境内翻译的“反倾销”运动。还有BLUE BOARD，除此之外，PROZ还有什么版板要译成中文？
另提供一条线索，是www.proz.cn中国站的持有人的QQ号：753375。考虑购买他的网站和进行合作也是一条可行性建议。请反对者原谅我出了一条＂馊主意＂。^_^ ^_^
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taivanis
Local time: 11:00
iš anglų į kinų
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TEMOS KŪRĖJA(S) | To your questions, Redred. | May 14, 2006 |
redred wrote:
PROZ上哪些版板要本地化，译成中文？发现大家驻足率最高的地方是KudoZ，难道要把它译成中文？也就是把问问题和答问题时涉及的内容译成中文。BTW，KudoZ的中文是什么意思？牛津高阶字典和最新版的金山词霸是没这个字的。把Jobs版译成中文？兴许不懂英文的翻译公司老板用GOOGLE能够搜到这里来，这还是很可行的。但是不怕商品的“中国威胁论”在翻译市场再现，怕未来会演绎着一场境外对境内翻译的“反倾销”运动。还有BLUE BOARD，除此之外，PROZ还有什么版板要译成中文？
另提供一条线索，是www.proz.cn中国站的持有人的QQ号：753375。考虑购买他的网站和进行合作也是一条可行性建议。请反对者原谅我出了一条＂馊主意＂。^_^ ^_^
1. What is to be translated into Chinese whe ProZ.com is to offer a localized Chinese language setting?
You may take a look of the localized webpages in other languages in this site. You will find out that it is only the interfaces, rules and regulations translated into those languages. The contents of the contributions of members in KudoZ or postings in Foren are not translated. Principally, it shall be only interfaces, rules and regulations translated. The work is not hard at all, since we have many experienced translators who understand what it means by "localization."
Job postings, KudoZ questions & Answers as well as forum postings do not belong to the category. That is, they are not in the reach of localization.
2. Proposal to buy www.proz.cn in China.
Well, I do not belong to the management of ProZ.com. I do not have the competence to answer this question. However, since I started this thread to advocate a Chinese localization of this website and to encourage experienced translators to join the task force, it is proper of me to express my opinion to your proposal.
You see, ProZ.com is running well and the localizations in all languages can be accomodated in the one original website. I don't see the necessity to buy a pirated registration of www.proz.com.tw, www.proz.com.sg, www.proz.com.hk, www.proz.com.cn or www.proz.com.whatsoever. I am sure that the volunteers would not be willing to switch over to any such .whatsoever. ProZ.com is a community of ours and we are willing to contribute for growing together in this community.
Any contras to the Chinese localization have been dismissed during the previous discussion. We know well enough that it is totally no ground to be afraid of having more Chinese translators and enterprisers visiting or even joining in this community. The rules and regulations are clear and to be observed. The moderators and the members will safeguard their observation.
When the community grow strong, each one of us, as a member of this community, grows as well. Don't worry. Look at the bright side of freedom and democracy which has been so far demonstrated on www.proz.com.
| | | | jyuan_us
Jungtinės Amerikos Valstijos
Local time: 22:00
Narys (2005)
iš anglų į kinų
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| More to Henry | May 14, 2006 |
I think all the justifications for localizing proz.com have been very weak. To a lot of people, this initiative sounds weird, becasue it is not quite logical. I do hope someone can honestly translate all the postings in thisthread in a fair mind to let you know the various opposite views.
One opinion is that localizing the site into Chinese would result in a fact that the Chinese can play a role of DECORATION only. As an antient Chinese saying goes: "drawing a snake and add feet to ... See more I think all the justifications for localizing proz.com have been very weak. To a lot of people, this initiative sounds weird, becasue it is not quite logical. I do hope someone can honestly translate all the postings in thisthread in a fair mind to let you know the various opposite views.
One opinion is that localizing the site into Chinese would result in a fact that the Chinese can play a role of DECORATION only. As an antient Chinese saying goes: "drawing a snake and add feet to it- ruining the effect by adding something superfluous".
This initiative is also like putting Chinese PINYIN GUIDE to every character to an audience who is perfect in reading Chinese. Imagine all the Chinese newspaper use Pinyin over every Chinese character. Is there such a need?
[Edited at 2006-05-14 20:24]
[Edited at 2006-05-14 20:25] ▲ Collapse
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Kevin Yang
Local time: 19:00
Narys (2003)
iš anglų į kinų
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| I am bothered by your distrustful mind. | May 14, 2006 |
jyuan_us wrote:
I think all the justifications for localizing proz.com have been very weak. To a lot of people, this initiative sounds weird, becasue it is not quite logical. I do hope someone can honestly translate all the postings in thisthread in a fair mind to let you know the various opposite views.
Jyuan,
You are entitled to have a different opinion about the Chinese localization. You are welcome to voice it here as you have been doing. It is very normal that there are different opinioins about any new plan to take place. Anyone else please do the same if you feel your voices have not been heard. I hope Henry and Patrick will respond to you when they have time.
By reading your above post, I was very much bothered by the way you were questioning about the communication between me and the management of the ProZ.com, and I am certain that your are referring to me because everyone knows I am the person who serves as the liaison here.
When you said "I do hope someone can honestly translate all the postings in this thread in a fair mind to let you know the various opposite views", are you indicating you would be more honest and "in a fair mind" than I am or the rest of us? If you are so distrustful, why don't you translate yourself those opposing voices here. I looked through all the posts here, there are only 3 or 4 translators expressed their opposing opinions, so it is not considered a lot for you to translate in my opinion.
Kevin
[Edited at 2006-05-14 23:06]
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taivanis
Local time: 11:00
iš anglų į kinų
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TEMOS KŪRĖJA(S) | How about you? | May 15, 2006 |
jyuan_us wrote:
... To a lot of people, this initiative sounds weird, becasue it is not quite logical. I do hope someone can honestly translate all the postings in thisthread in a fair mind to let you know the various opposite views.
How many are a lot of people? Should there be some more contras, they shall be written in English.
Someone can honestly translate all the postings in this thread in a fair mind? Well, how about you? I would appreciate it very much, if you could.
[Edited at 2006-05-15 07:00]
| | | | Donglai Lou (X)
Kinija
Local time: 11:00
iš anglų į kinų
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| How to translate the term "Kudoz" | May 15, 2006 |
redred wrote:
BTW，KudoZ的中文是什么意思？
That's a good question. unfortunately, I can not remember the specific explanation of this term. since it is a brand name now, I will prefer to leave it in English. anyway, if we want to get it translated, my "creative" suggestion is "酷得词" (get a word / translation in a cool way) or "酷词" (cool words).
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Proz.com 经中文本地化之后，大家预测可能会有一些负面的影响。另外，我前面也说明了自己的看法，对商业实体利用会员“免费”服务的做法，不能赞同。
然而，当我们抛开这些负面的思考，就本地化工作本身来看，作为华人翻译集体进行首次有规模正式合作的契机，这项工程的意义远比它可能带来的负面影响来得重要与深远。
在首次虚拟论坛的讨论中，�... See more Proz.com 经中文本地化之后，大家预测可能会有一些负面的影响。另外，我前面也说明了自己的看法，对商业实体利用会员“免费”服务的做法，不能赞同。
然而，当我们抛开这些负面的思考，就本地化工作本身来看，作为华人翻译集体进行首次有规模正式合作的契机，这项工程的意义远比它可能带来的负面影响来得重要与深远。
在首次虚拟论坛的讨论中，我们可以达成一种共识，即通过这次本地化活动，可以凝聚全球华人翻译业者统一工作，发挥各自的长处，培养协调能力。经资深翻译业者统筹，计划与安排，大家可以在工作的同时增进相互间的了解，密切彼此间的协作。
即便如人断言，参与者中可能有些翻译人缺乏本地化经验，但这并非无法克服的困难。相反，这些翻译人可以在集体合作中获得宝贵的经验。整个集体更可在项目完成后积累到多人同时从事中型翻译项目的宝贵经验，并为集体合作从事其他中型、大型项目工作打下基础。
考虑一个问题，必须从多方面入手方可看清其实质。在各种矛盾与冲突错综复杂、交织缠绕的状态中，找出切入点，着眼于主要利益，是成就事业的方法。
在此我感谢文哲与志坚两位兄长与我的交谈，这促成了我以上观点的形成。
建军 ▲ Collapse
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jyuan_us
Jungtinės Amerikos Valstijos
Local time: 22:00
Narys (2005)
iš anglų į kinų
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| I'm talking to Henry as a customer | May 15, 2006 |
Anyone hear should not assume an attitude of ordering anyone to do anything. Please be appropriate.
[Edited at 2006-05-15 04:52]
| | | | | Kudoz is apparently a coinage derived directly from kudoS, | May 15, 2006 |
which actually means 'appraise'. It is of Greek origin, and used as a mass noun.
Donglai Lou wrote:
redred wrote:
BTW，KudoZ的中文是什么意思？
That's a good question. unfortunately, I can not remember the specific explanation of this term. since it is a brand name now, I will prefer to leave it in English. anyway, if we want to get it translated, my "creative" suggestion is "酷得词" (get a word / translation in a cool way) or "酷词" (cool words).
[Edited at 2006-05-15 07:03]
| | | | Donglai Lou (X)
Kinija
Local time: 11:00
iš anglų į kinų
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1. To be frank, I share the same concerns with Jyuan and other opponents about market chaos and low-price competition. However, it is too early to predict that localization of Proz into Chinese will have positive or negative effect on the global Chinese market.
2. Our concerns also confirm your strategy that localization of this site will help you penetrate into local market. a Chinese interface can help a Japanese - Chinese translator, who knows little English, to bid a job posted... See more 1. To be frank, I share the same concerns with Jyuan and other opponents about market chaos and low-price competition. However, it is too early to predict that localization of Proz into Chinese will have positive or negative effect on the global Chinese market.
2. Our concerns also confirm your strategy that localization of this site will help you penetrate into local market. a Chinese interface can help a Japanese - Chinese translator, who knows little English, to bid a job posted in Japanese by clients in Japan more effectively.
3. it will be a great pity and loss of Chinese community if Proz launches versions of all major languages except Chinese.
[Edited at 2006-05-15 06:38] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Angus Woo
Local time: 11:00
iš kinų į anglų
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| 個人認為這個要看Proz的經營策略 | May 15, 2006 |
從生意的角度來講，本地化會得不償失。我這樣說，可能有人會反對，不過姑且說說給大家參考。
從Ｆrank的市場策略來說，基本是要靠付費會員來支撐這個網站的。目前最低的也要７０美元一年，這在國內是很高的價碼了。如果把這裡辦成和內地的翻譯網站一樣，那麼就等於要和那些網站處於同一起跑線上。據我所知，似乎國內還沒有哪一個網站收７０美元會費一�... See more 從生意的角度來講，本地化會得不償失。我這樣說，可能有人會反對，不過姑且說說給大家參考。
從Ｆrank的市場策略來說，基本是要靠付費會員來支撐這個網站的。目前最低的也要７０美元一年，這在國內是很高的價碼了。如果把這裡辦成和內地的翻譯網站一樣，那麼就等於要和那些網站處於同一起跑線上。據我所知，似乎國內還沒有哪一個網站收７０美元會費一年可以成功的。
做市場推廣必須在自己的客戶群內開展，如果要歐洲車同日本Corolla以同樣的策略競爭是不切實際的。在任何市場，競爭都是無可避免的，但要考慮的是如果單純在價格上面競爭，那麼多數的歐洲車都將處於劣勢。翻譯也是ㄧ樣的。
如果把這裡的市場定位也確定在和內地同一個位置上，那麼在內地翻譯市場出現的低價低質就將不可避免地出現在這裡。結果就是儘管國內也有不錯的翻譯，雖然占全部翻譯群體的比例相對很小，可惜價格就是上不來。
第一、本地化吸引到的更多的是英文不太好的翻譯或者翻譯公司，對於英文稍好的翻譯來說是否本地化根本沒有多大的影響。本地化的結果，可能是吸引了更多英文不太靈光的不付費會員或者翻譯公司，這些人對於Frank來講，對其收入好處不大。而且這些人的競價，還最終會令越來越多的付費會員忘而卻步，沒有人會願意在競爭不到業務的時候，還繼續繳會費。
第二、這些人給出的價格遠比在座各位要低，詢價的時候，在客戶同翻譯彼此之間了解不多的前提下，一般都會傾向選擇低價。惡性循環也就從此開始了，這樣對各位也沒有多大好處。我自己試過好幾次給內地的翻譯執手尾，這些人雖然價格不高８０－１００元人民幣／千字，可膽子十分大，有的真的是一塌糊塗。甚至還試過有不誠實的內地翻譯，先翻譯成簡體字再變成繁體字，然後就慌稱是香港繁體蒙客戶，從用字到用法都跟香港的不一樣。估計這樣的情況，各位也碰到過。
大家難道沒有注意到嗎？這裡其實註冊了很多內地的翻譯，不少之所以不太活躍，個人認為很大程度上是被語言所困，不敢輕易發帖和回答問題。撤銷了這道門檻，那麼很快這裡就變成了另一個內地的翻譯網站。
撤銷了對語言的門檻，那麼價格和質量的門檻跟著也就消失了。接著消失的就是會費收入。
第三、那麼，本地化對吸引優質的客戶是否有幫助呢？照理說，如果優質客戶增加了，總還是會有人付高些的價格換取高質量的翻譯的。可個人認為答案依然是否定的。原因很簡單，內地現成的那麼多本地化翻譯網站，吸引了多少優質客戶呢？那些人的價格如何呢？前車之鑑，足以為戒。
第四、作為生意，應該盡量方便服務的對象，也就是客人，而不是提供服務的那些人。現在翻譯市場的優質客戶，基本上都是海外的，起碼目前來說，這些客戶對英文的熟悉程度遠遠超過中文。如果這裡本地化成中文，無異於給這些衣食父母當中的不少人出難題，有違生意之道。應該把這個地方做得更方便客戶，才是正確的方向，有了更多好客戶，自然就會有更多的付費會員。個人認為收費翻譯網站的客戶，其實不是翻譯，而是給翻譯們下單的那些人，這些人的存在決定了是否有付費的翻譯來註冊。翻譯市場基本上是個買方市場，因為這裡的單子比其他地方多，所以才有這麼多付費的會員，付費就是為了可以把錢賺回來，否則誰還會給錢。因此，在商言商，客戶永遠是排在第一位的。
這些都是個人意見，供大家參考。本地化對於將來的發展，是好處多還是壞處多，值得認真想一想。 ▲ Collapse
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David Shen
Jungtinės Amerikos Valstijos
Local time: 19:00
iš anglų į kinų
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| How to translate KudoZ? "酷得词" | May 15, 2006 |
How to translate KudoZ?
这个问题问得好!点到了ProZ.com之所以如此成功的其中奥秘之一.即现代人,包括你和我,都希望人家知道自己的聪明才智,希望自己的过人之处被别人承认,并因此而得到赞扬和感激.
虽然偶尔可能稍为要化点时间和精力查证,但能在别人有求时能提供及时帮助,而不伤及自己皮毛.没时间或没兴趣的亦无"见死不救"之嫌,更不要求你作出"两胁插刀"式的... See more How to translate KudoZ?
这个问题问得好!点到了ProZ.com之所以如此成功的其中奥秘之一.即现代人,包括你和我,都希望人家知道自己的聪明才智,希望自己的过人之处被别人承认,并因此而得到赞扬和感激.
虽然偶尔可能稍为要化点时间和精力查证,但能在别人有求时能提供及时帮助,而不伤及自己皮毛.没时间或没兴趣的亦无"见死不救"之嫌,更不要求你作出"两胁插刀"式的牺牲.更深一层说,各语种虽已有大词典,但词典死,语言文字活.当同仁们在"隔靴搔痒"时,你的答复如果认真的话(往往还有创造性而显得精彩),那么你所获得的就是"Kudos"即"一时的荣誉".用简单化的中文讲就是: 你应该受表扬.
说到荣誉,不同的年代,不同的文化,有不同程度的荣誉.
小时在中国第一次戴上少先队员红领巾时,我第一次感到荣誉的滋味."我们是新中国的儿童,我们是新少年的先锋.团结起来,继承前辈的英雄......"班上四,五十个同学中我是第一批带上红领巾的.当时门牙掉了也止不住心头之喜,只管咧着嘴巴笑.鲜红的领结与奶奶织的青蓝布衫和爸妈买的新书包形成对比,只觉漂亮得自己傻掉.尽管我的第一间课堂是二十多年前被日本人炸坏了至今尚未完全修缮的"石贤庙." (我爸爸在那儿读到四年级后再也没回去,因为他的老师被炸死了.) 没有修缮的庙堂只是用砖块堵着.有时早晨的阳光会从砖缝或瓦片之间照射进来,照在书上.拿颗玻璃弹子或爸爸给的有机玻璃小尺子会折射出五光十色;有时有蜘蛛从庙的樑上挂下来,看它很忙碌的样子很好玩的.但为了红领巾这份荣誉,为了它能不时地在为我证明:我比其他孩子好,老师更喜欢我,我会常常提醒自己:"上课不要开小差" 两手併拢放整齐,装模作样.
后来,像章,红卫兵臂章,军帽军鞋军背包,以及后来的杭大校级三好学生等都给予过我不同程度的荣誉感,但好象都没能超过红领巾,最大的荣誉是自己的争气博得母亲由衷的高兴.
大学毕业后在美术学院整天和画家们在一起.他们的才华是另外一种.不善言辞者往往画得比能说会道的好.读的书大多为教人不要追求荣誉的那种,即老庄哲学居多.这与他们的职业追求正好相反.(当画家不就要出名才有出息吗?) 但认真的画家整天处在画理,哲理和艺术规律的矛盾之中,如欲聚先散,知白守黑等.说来也怪,那些画得忘了工资,忘了房子,忘了荣誉的画家的手下才有好作品,而那些斤斤计较的画家也许争得个好房子,或弄个副院长系主任当当的,就是画不出来好画.只能叫人怕,不能叫人敬,名誉呢,天晓得!因此,和画家们在一起的这些年,让我变得十分不求上进.视荣誉为低级!慢慢地也染上"孤芳自赏"的习气.
我想不光画家,许多中国读书人对荣誉都有这么一种矛盾心理.怕被人骂"沽名钓誉".宋元以降,文人相倾愈演愈烈,很少有真诚欣赏和欢呼别人的文才和成就,这一传统早在盛唐过后即便消失在我们的文化传统中.希望中文译者们在本地化的平台上大力提倡.
到美国后第二年结识了一位当年参加过南太平洋与日本海空军进行过激战的二战老兵.在看History Channel 时他会激动地讲述他的经历.其中使他至今无法理解的是日本空军的 Kamikaze pilots (敢死队). "These Japs were crazy!" 他说.他们会在起飞前混身绑上炸弹,卸下轮子,以示一去不回,效忠天皇的决心.然后开着飞机直朝美军军舰的烟囱里扎."But we shot most of them down before they could approach us." 他摇着头说. 这又是什么样的一种荣誉感,这种荣誉感给别人和自己会带来什么结果,也许只有当事者本人说得清楚.
我想我们在KudoZ词汇栏目内这种"勇敢"大约用不着吧,不过偶尔也可在论坛里读到近乎"Kamikaze"式的争骂.
还是回到Kudos这个词义本身吧. 查词典的同事们应该注意:
1) Kudos 词源于希腊语,因此跟中国和日本词源的"磕头称谢 kowtow"有别.(日本人相见作揖时总让人担心他们的头会相撞,因为相互不看对方而看地下.) 所以请我们回答时最好看看对方是谁,想问什么.
2) 如查英汉词典,请记住,这类词不是板凳,黄瓜,英-汉词典往往没多大用处,尤其是没有例句的那些英-汉词典.汉语解释可能会列出:荣誉,荣耀等.但我们作为人,只能够有荣誉,而不配有荣耀,因为"荣耀"只能留给神明.
要学好这类词,Last Hermit大约给我们作出了这方面的表率,即至少查一本英-英词典.
最后,我觉得东来老弟的译词"酷得词"很巧妙.声,义,情,理都恰到好处.我们的答案被选中,不是可以让自己感到"酷得一时"吗?因为我们知道,此身如浮云,不可能因一词半句而流芳百世.而ProZ.com的构思者挖掘到的正是现代人人人都想"酷得一时"的心理资源.所以,制定其鼓励政策时,亦推行给诸位以十五分钟的特殊荣誉(fifteen minutes of fame!) 而这样做的好处是新朋旧友大家一视同仁.民主之道也!
我啰嗦了半天,才发决自己答错了地方,这儿是连一个KudoZ点都争不到的.今日母亲节逢星期天,就当借此机会怀念一下母亲留给我儿时的欢乐吧!
Last Hermit wrote:
which actually means 'appraise'. It is of Greek origin, and used as a mass noun.
Donglai Lou wrote:
redred wrote:
BTW，KudoZ的中文是什么意思？
That's a good question. unfortunately, I can not remember the specific explanation of this term. since it is a brand name now, I will prefer to leave it in English. anyway, if we want to get it translated, my "creative" suggestion is "酷得词" (get a word / translation in a cool way) or "酷词" (cool words).
[Edited at 2006-05-15 07:03] ▲ Collapse
| | | | redred
Kinija
Local time: 11:00
iš anglų į kinų
+ ...
嘻嘻，众多孕育中的PROZ的兄弟姊妹，有知名度，人家才想认亲戚．
| | | | redred
Kinija
Local time: 11:00
iš anglų į kinų
+ ...
从坛子上嗅出一些信息，就算是收费会员，在”工作版”也不是经常获得工作.去年盛夏刚来PROZ时,看见项目竟投所记录的数字还不是那么大,现在数字显示出竟投的数字越来越大.要是加上使用邮址直接联系的人,人数更是庞大.当分母越来越大,分子却是固定不变时,赶热闹就是凑分母那份.在PROZ上,很多人是不出现在论坛上,从侧面可看出人们是志在必得, 他们不热衷于闲聊,工作版才是他们最感兴趣的地方和目标所在.
[Edited at 2006-05-16 23:41]
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